Evaluating WingIDE

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Evaluating WingIDE

Michael Hipp
I've used up my allotment of free trial periods of WingIDE so I must
make a decision, I'm mostly comparing WingIDE to Komodo Pro. A few
questions:

Is there a development roadmap for WingIDE?

(I have some issues that are difficult to ignore and wondering if they
might be changed soon.)

How responsive is Wingware to enhancement suggestions and bug submissions?

Thanks,
Michael Hipp
Hipp & Associates
Heber Springs, AR, USA

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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Wing IDE Support
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Michael Hipp wrote:
> I've used up my allotment of free trial periods of WingIDE so I must
> make a decision, I'm mostly comparing WingIDE to Komodo Pro. A few
> questions:
>
> Is there a development roadmap for WingIDE?

Yes, but we don't make it public anymore.  However, I can comment on
the priority of specific items you're interested in.

> (I have some issues that are difficult to ignore and wondering if they
> might be changed soon.)
>
> How responsive is Wingware to enhancement suggestions and bug submissions?

Our development is almost 100% user-driven.  Of course we have to
prioritize a bit based on feasibility, etc, but we always try to get
to the most common requests first.

In any case, we're very interested in hearing what it is that you find
problematic -- initial impression and usability issues are
particularly important to us!

Thanks for trying Wing.

Stephan Deibel

--
Wingware
Wing IDE for Python
Advancing Software Development

www.wingware.com
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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Charles Hartman
In reply to this post by Michael Hipp
As a user, I just wanted to say that I have never -- really, I think,  
never on any software -- seen a tech-support-and-development  
operation as responsive as Wing's. Some stuff takes a while to add or  
(less often) fix, but that always seems to be because it's inherently  
difficult, conflicts with other desirable features, etc.

Very happy camper,
Charles Hartman


On Jul 28, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Michael Hipp wrote:

> I've used up my allotment of free trial periods of WingIDE so I must
> make a decision, I'm mostly comparing WingIDE to Komodo Pro. A few
> questions:
>
> Is there a development roadmap for WingIDE?
>
> (I have some issues that are difficult to ignore and wondering if they
> might be changed soon.)
>
> How responsive is Wingware to enhancement suggestions and bug  
> submissions?
>
> Thanks,
> Michael Hipp
> Hipp & Associates
> Heber Springs, AR, USA
>
> _________________________________________________
> Wing IDE users list
> http://wingware.com/lists/wingide
>

Charles Hartman
Professor of English, Poet in Residence
Connecticut College
[hidden email]
*the Scandroid* is at cherry.conncoll.edu/cohar/Programs.htm


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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

robert rottermann
Beeing a wingide user for a couple of years now
I can but second what Charles is saying.

The support is just outstanding
Robert

Charles Hartman wrote:

>As a user, I just wanted to say that I have never -- really, I think,  
>never on any software -- seen a tech-support-and-development  
>operation as responsive as Wing's. Some stuff takes a while to add or  
>(less often) fix, but that always seems to be because it's inherently  
>difficult, conflicts with other desirable features, etc.
>
>Very happy camper,
>Charles Hartman
>
>
>On Jul 28, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Michael Hipp wrote:
>
>  
>>I've used up my allotment of free trial periods of WingIDE so I must
>>make a decision, I'm mostly comparing WingIDE to Komodo Pro. A few
>>questions:
>>
>>Is there a development roadmap for WingIDE?
>>
>>(I have some issues that are difficult to ignore and wondering if they
>>might be changed soon.)
>>
>>How responsive is Wingware to enhancement suggestions and bug  
>>submissions?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Michael Hipp
>>Hipp & Associates
>>Heber Springs, AR, USA
>>
>>_________________________________________________
>>Wing IDE users list
>>http://wingware.com/lists/wingide
>>
>>    
>
>Charles Hartman
>Professor of English, Poet in Residence
>Connecticut College
>[hidden email]
>*the Scandroid* is at cherry.conncoll.edu/cohar/Programs.htm
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>Wing IDE users list
>http://wingware.com/lists/wingide
>
>  

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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Peter2106
Me too

Peter

robert rottermann wrote:
Beeing a wingide user for a couple of years now
I can but second what Charles is saying.

The support is just outstanding
Robert

Charles Hartman wrote:
  
As a user, I just wanted to say that I have never -- really, I think,  
never on any software -- seen a tech-support-and-development  
operation as responsive as Wing's. Some stuff takes a while to add or  
(less often) fix, but that always seems to be because it's inherently  
difficult, conflicts with other desirable features, etc.

Very happy camper,
Charles Hartman


On Jul 28, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Michael Hipp wrote:

 
    
I've used up my allotment of free trial periods of WingIDE so I must
make a decision, I'm mostly comparing WingIDE to Komodo Pro. A few
questions:

Is there a development roadmap for WingIDE?

(I have some issues that are difficult to ignore and wondering if they
might be changed soon.)

How responsive is Wingware to enhancement suggestions and bug  
submissions?

Thanks,
Michael Hipp
Hipp & Associates
Heber Springs, AR, USA

_________________________________________________
Wing IDE users list
http://wingware.com/lists/wingide

   
      
Charles Hartman
Professor of English, Poet in Residence
Connecticut College
[hidden email]
*the Scandroid* is at cherry.conncoll.edu/cohar/Programs.htm


_________________________________________________
Wing IDE users list
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_________________________________________________
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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Douglas Soares de Andrade
Me too.

People at wingware are just great !

Em Sáb 30 Jul 2005 17:10, Peter Mott escreveu:

> Me too
>
> Peter
>
> robert rottermann wrote:
> >Beeing a wingide user for a couple of years now
> >I can but second what Charles is saying.
> >
> >The support is just outstanding
> >Robert
> >
> >Charles Hartman wrote:
> >>As a user, I just wanted to say that I have never -- really, I think,
> >>never on any software -- seen a tech-support-and-development
> >>operation as responsive as Wing's. Some stuff takes a while to add or
> >>(less often) fix, but that always seems to be because it's inherently
> >>difficult, conflicts with other desirable features, etc.
> >>
> >>Very happy camper,
> >>Charles Hartman
> >>
> >>On Jul 28, 2005, at 12:10 PM, Michael Hipp wrote:
> >>>I've used up my allotment of free trial periods of WingIDE so I must
> >>>make a decision, I'm mostly comparing WingIDE to Komodo Pro. A few
> >>>questions:
> >>>
> >>>Is there a development roadmap for WingIDE?
> >>>
> >>>(I have some issues that are difficult to ignore and wondering if they
> >>>might be changed soon.)
> >>>
> >>>How responsive is Wingware to enhancement suggestions and bug
> >>>submissions?
> >>>
> >>>Thanks,
> >>>Michael Hipp
> >>>Hipp & Associates
> >>>Heber Springs, AR, USA
> >>>
> >>>_________________________________________________
> >>>Wing IDE users list
> >>>http://wingware.com/lists/wingide
> >>
> >>Charles Hartman
> >>Professor of English, Poet in Residence
> >>Connecticut College
> >>[hidden email]
> >>*the Scandroid* is at cherry.conncoll.edu/cohar/Programs.htm
> >>
> >>
> >>_________________________________________________
> >>Wing IDE users list
> >>http://wingware.com/lists/wingide
> >
> >_________________________________________________
> >Wing IDE users list
> >http://wingware.com/lists/wingide

--
Douglas Soares de Andrade
dsa at unilestemg.br
UnilesteMG - www.unilestemg.br
ICQ, MSN = 76277921, douglas at tuxfamily.org
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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Michael Hipp
In reply to this post by Wing IDE Support
Wingware Support wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Michael Hipp wrote:
>
>>Is there a development roadmap for WingIDE?
>
> Yes, but we don't make it public anymore.  However, I can comment on
> the priority of specific items you're interested in.
>
>>(I have some issues that are difficult to ignore and wondering if they
>>might be changed soon.)
>>
>>How responsive is Wingware to enhancement suggestions and bug submissions?
>
> In any case, we're very interested in hearing what it is that you find
> problematic -- initial impression and usability issues are
> particularly important to us!

Thanks, Stephan. And thanks for all who responded with their enthusiasm
for Wingware/WingIDE.

I have now purchased the Windows version of WingIDE and I'll soon add
the Linux version (as soon as I can get back to developing on Linux.)

Since you made the offer, here are my issues I mentioned.

The "A" list:
-------------
- Ability to truly hide the horizontal tool area - it still takes up
valuable editing screen space even when hidden.
- Ability, from the GUI, to change the colors for syntax highlighting.
(I find some of the color defaults to be particularly problematic on the
3 systems I routinely use. Examples: The dark blue of Python keywords is
too similar to black, the light blue of function names and constants is
pale and washed out.)
- Ability to move/hide the small tool bar above the editing window that
contains the back/forward buttons and the class and function selectors.
- Improve color syntax highlighting:
      - 'True' and 'False' should be colored as Python keywords like
          'None'.
      - Python operators (e.g. +-*/) should have their own color.
      - Color parenthesis (), brackets [], braces.
- The tabbing and indentation often seems to have a mind of its own.
Sometimes it won't indent a line no matter how many times I hit the tab
key. And why won't tabbing work between the end of a source line and a
end-of-line comment (to align the comments in a block). I have to resort
to the spacebar.

The "B" list:
-------------
- Provide a "Hide" button directly on the horizontal tool area.
- Improve the little tiny icons to the left of items in the tree in the
vertical tool area. For example when browsing code in the current
module, most of the icons are some slight variation on a green circle.
Not easy for the eye to differentiate. Komodo Pro does this well by
using different colored circles, squares and triangles. The difference
is stark. I can provide a screen shot if it would be helpful.

The "C" list:
-------------
- Improve the size/color/readability of the icons in the main WingIDE
tool bar ("Windows Defaults" theme). They're small and hard to discern.
There is a lot of "dead" pixel space around them.

A lot of the above has to do with gaining more screen space for the
editor window. Much of my work is done on my laptop which has only
1024x768 so maximizing editing space is a priority.

Thanks,
Michael
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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Wing IDE Support
Thank you for your feedback; it's feedback like this that will direct
future development.

Michael Hipp wrote:
> - Ability to truly hide the horizontal tool area - it still takes up
> valuable editing screen space even when hidden.

Just to be clear, do you mean the few pixels that the drag bar to adjust
the split takes?  Or, do you have the tabs showing?

> - Ability, from the GUI, to change the colors for syntax highlighting.

This is something we need to do and I've just upped the priority on
implementing it.

> - Ability to move/hide the small tool bar above the editing window that
> contains the back/forward buttons and the class and function selectors.

We could add an option to hide this bar.  As far as moving it, were you
envisioning putting it into its own window.

Also, did you try hiding to file tabs?  This is a way of hiding a tool
bar and maximizing screen real estate.

> - Improve color syntax highlighting:
>       - 'True' and 'False' should be colored as Python keywords like
>           'None'.
>       - Python operators (e.g. +-*/) should have their own color.
>       - Color parenthesis (), brackets [], braces.

Good suggestions.

> - The tabbing and indentation often seems to have a mind of its own.
> Sometimes it won't indent a line no matter how many times I hit the tab
> key. And why won't tabbing work between the end of a source line and a
> end-of-line comment (to align the comments in a block). I have to resort
> to the spacebar.

Currently the tab key always indents a line, no matter where the cursor
is.  Ctrl-T can be used to enter a tab character.  We intend to provide
the option of changing this in the future.  Can you send any examples of
where Wing fails to indent to [hidden email]?

> - Provide a "Hide" button directly on the horizontal tool area.

There is a "hide tool box" on the tool box's context menu that is
brought up with the left mouse button or by clicking on the triangle on
the left of the tool box.

> - Improve the little tiny icons to the left of items in the tree in the
> vertical tool area. For example when browsing code in the current
> module, most of the icons are some slight variation on a green circle.

The circles have F (function), M (method), or C (class) in them and are
colored green if public, red for private, and yellow for semi-private
(one _ prefix).  Are the letter to small for you?  If you want to send a
screenshot, please send it to [hidden email].

> - Improve the size/color/readability of the icons in the main WingIDE
> tool bar ("Windows Defaults" theme). They're small and hard to discern.
> There is a lot of "dead" pixel space around them.

Have you tried adjusting the size and text presence in the preferences?
  I also use a 1024x768 laptop screen also and I end up using a small
size toolbar with icons only.

Thanks again,

John
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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Michael Hipp
Wingware Support wrote:
> Michael Hipp wrote:
>
>> - Ability to truly hide the horizontal tool area - it still takes up
>> valuable editing screen space even when hidden.
>
>
> Just to be clear, do you mean the few pixels that the drag bar to adjust
> the split takes?  Or, do you have the tabs showing?

I have the tabs showing. (Is there a way to hide them?) But I'm really
wanting it all to hide and allow the edit window to drop all the way
down against the status bar.

  >> - Ability to move/hide the small tool bar above the editing window
>> that contains the back/forward buttons and the class and function
>> selectors.
>
>
> We could add an option to hide this bar.  As far as moving it, were you
> envisioning putting it into its own window.

I think my preferred option would be to hide it as it is somewhat
redundant to the 'Browse Current Module' feature on the vertical tool
bar. But I'd also like the ability to move it to the same line as the
file tabs. Or perhaps even move it to the main WingIDE tool bar.

> Also, did you try hiding to file tabs?  This is a way of hiding a tool
> bar and maximizing screen real estate.

I think you meant "hiding the file tabs". I like the file tabs showing
as they're the fastest way to jump around in the files.

>> - The tabbing and indentation often seems to have a mind of its own.
>> Sometimes it won't indent a line no matter how many times I hit the
>> tab key. And why won't tabbing work between the end of a source line
>> and a end-of-line comment (to align the comments in a block). I have
>> to resort to the spacebar.
>
>
> Currently the tab key always indents a line, no matter where the cursor
> is.  Ctrl-T can be used to enter a tab character.  We intend to provide
> the option of changing this in the future.  Can you send any examples of
> where Wing fails to indent to [hidden email]?

Sent.

I guess I'd like to recommend the rule of "no surprises" in that the tab
key does what's expected by our experiences with other text editors.

>> - Provide a "Hide" button directly on the horizontal tool area.
>
>
> There is a "hide tool box" on the tool box's context menu that is
> brought up with the left mouse button or by clicking on the triangle on
> the left of the tool box.

Yes. But I would like an easy-to-hit target that makes it (fully)
disappear with one click. Note that the 'F1' key is appreciated. But
something in the GUI would be helpful also.

>> - Improve the little tiny icons to the left of items in the tree in
>> the vertical tool area. For example when browsing code in the current
>> module, most of the icons are some slight variation on a green circle.
>
>
> The circles have F (function), M (method), or C (class) in them and are
> colored green if public, red for private, and yellow for semi-private
> (one _ prefix).  Are the letter to small for you?  If you want to send a
> screenshot, please send it to [hidden email].

I sent a screen snippet both of WingIDE and Komodo.

>> - Improve the size/color/readability of the icons in the main WingIDE
>> tool bar ("Windows Defaults" theme). They're small and hard to
>> discern. There is a lot of "dead" pixel space around them.
>
>
> Have you tried adjusting the size and text presence in the preferences?
>  I also use a 1024x768 laptop screen also and I end up using a small
> size toolbar with icons only.

Yes. I've tried different combinations but in order to get the icons up
to normal size (per Win32 conventions), the overall tool bar gets way
too fat. Note that much of the problem is there are quite a lot of dead
pixels around the icon image (within the button area) and above and
below the actual buttons. Also the colors appear a bit washed out and
non distinct.

Thanks for your time and attention,
Michael
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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Markus Meyer
Michael Hipp schrieb:

>>Currently the tab key always indents a line, no matter where the cursor
>>is.  Ctrl-T can be used to enter a tab character.  We intend to provide
>>the option of changing this in the future.  Can you send any examples of
>>where Wing fails to indent to [hidden email]?
>>    
>>
>
>Sent.
>
>I guess I'd like to recommend the rule of "no surprises" in that the tab
>key does what's expected by our experiences with other text editors.
>  
>
Just curious: Isn't it possible to assign the TAB key the meaning of
Ctrl-T through defining a keyboard shortcut in preferences? I remember
there was a discussion about this recently on this list, but I can't
find it right now. This would be exactly what you want (though it can be
argued that defining a separate option for that in preferences would be
easier).


Markus

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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

Wing IDE Support
In reply to this post by Michael Hipp
Michael Hipp wrote:
>>>- Ability to truly hide the horizontal tool area - it still takes up
>>>valuable editing screen space even when hidden.
>
> I have the tabs showing. (Is there a way to hide them?) But I'm really
> wanting it all to hide and allow the edit window to drop all the way
> down against the status bar.

Use left click to bring up the popup menu and choose "Hide Toolbox".
The toolbox box will be hidden except for the few pixel line that
resizes the panes.

>   >> - Ability to move/hide the small tool bar above the editing window
>
> I think my preferred option would be to hide it as it is somewhat
> redundant to the 'Browse Current Module' feature on the vertical tool
> bar. But I'd also like the ability to move it to the same line as the
> file tabs. Or perhaps even move it to the main WingIDE tool bar.

I think an option to hide it makes sense.  We could also enable moving
it to the main menu bar, though that seems less important.

>>Also, did you try hiding to file tabs?  This is a way of hiding a tool
>>bar and maximizing screen real estate.
>
> I think you meant "hiding the file tabs". I like the file tabs showing
> as they're the fastest way to jump around in the files.

If you hide the file tabs, a drop down menu appears that lets you switch
between files.

>>There is a "hide tool box" on the tool box's context menu that is
>>brought up with the left mouse button or by clicking on the triangle on
>>the left of the tool box.
>
> Yes. But I would like an easy-to-hit target that makes it (fully)
> disappear with one click. Note that the 'F1' key is appreciated. But
> something in the GUI would be helpful also.

This is a tradeoff between screen real estate and making it easy to
find.  We'll probably see if we can come up with some sort of small button.

Thanks,

John
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Re: Evaluating WingIDE

John Ehresman
In reply to this post by Markus Meyer
Markus Meyer wrote:
> Just curious: Isn't it possible to assign the TAB key the meaning of
> Ctrl-T through defining a keyboard shortcut in preferences?

You can do this and you can also bind TAB to the vs-tab command that is
implemented in the editor-extensions example script file that's
installed by default.  I really should have remembered that we ship this
before I answered the first time...

John
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